The cross : After 80 works devoted to spiritual and poetic figures, you have decided to indulge in a “spiritual autobiography”. Why ?
Jacques Gauthier: I prefer to talk about others than about myself. But, with the pandemic, I had time to do this retrospective on my journey, and especially on the footsteps of God in my life. It’s something I couldn’t have done at 40. But at 70, after having lived through moments in the desert, at night, it’s different. I also saw my parents leave, who died four years ago, three months apart. I owe them for revealing to me the beauty and love of God. My father died in my arms, while I was reciting the Our Father. My mom said, “ He left “. I answered him : ” No mom, it happened. I am very aware that every day I could die, it’s something I’m very sensitive to. This is one of the reasons why I love Thérèse of Lisieux so much, for whom the ” life is only a moment, a fleeting hour », and who wants to love Jesus « just for today “.
Thérèse of Lisieux particularly inspires you, but also Charles de Foucauld, Jean de la Croix… Where does this attachment to these spiritual figures come from?
JJ: After my conversion, in 1973, I came to France, to Trosly-Breuil (Oise), to l’Arche, and to the Trappists of Bellefontaine. Then I went to La Trappe d’Oka, in Quebec. I felt a call to monastic life. Worship gave me a vital impulse and I wanted to dedicate my life to Christ. I spent four years at the monastery. Father Abbé d’Oka was a well-balanced person, who was not there to fill the ranks at all costs. He told me : “ You are not made for us here. You can come whenever you want, but you have a vocation in the world. These brothers who never wanted to hold me back became friends, I even preached a retreat to them later.
This time spent at the monastery structured me and gave me a taste for tradition. I like to dig into my Christian tradition. We have exceptional authors, be it Saint Augustine, Saint Bernard, Saint John of the Cross, Saint Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort… During the pandemic, as I could no longer go to give retreats, I created a YouTube channel where I uploaded 160 videos on angels, on little Thérèse… I see that there really is an audience for this, who would be ready to turn to esotericism, when we have everything in the tradition of the Church to answer their questions.
You devoted your doctoral thesis to Patrice de la Tour du Pin. Does poetry hold a special place in your spirituality?
JJ: Poetry is a way of being. It’s the little that says a lot. The two great beacons in my life are Thérèse of Lisieux and Patrice de la Tour du Pin. I owe a lot to the French! Thérèse, she helps me to live. His poems, we can find them a little cutesy, but they make me cry every time. The more time passes, the crazier it becomes for me. She’s coming to get me, that little girl, it doesn’t make sense. I understand that Bernanos fell for her, Piaf too! She takes us far, Thérèse, it’s not jokes. She is certainly the most famous French woman in the world.
As for Patrice de la Tour du Pin, it was a joy to devote my doctoral thesis to him. He helps me to pray. There are flashes in his verses: You who seek God, do not forget that God seeks you. He beckons to you in order to beckon youliving “. The bit that says it all is the work of the poet. It is the least inappropriate language to say God.
You are very sensitive to the traces of God in your life. But your journey is marked by the spiritual accompaniment of Father Thomas Philippe, of Jean Vanier, both subsequently convicted of sexual assault. Where are the traces of God here?
JJ: I fell from the top when I learned what was alleged against Thomas Philippe, then Jean Vanier. These revelations are heavy, and throw me to the ground. I still wonder about the reasons for their actions. I had seen nothing, nothing, at the time. For me they were men of prayer, and of charisma. Now I also know that they were seducers. The danger is when you put a person on a pedestal. To idolize someone is to weaken them and put themselves in danger. We must break the statues. And above all, really stick to your time for daily prayer, not seek glory… I give a lot of retreats to priests, on prayer. I am married, I have four children, grandchildren. It gives me a balance. If I wasn’t married, I might have sunk too…
But I believe that the Church has never been so beautiful, with everything that falls on us… She is in an incredible purification, close to Jesus on the cross: she can only be resurrection. She’s up to her neck in shit, that’s for sure. But you have to accept it, because that’s how the flowers will grow. Faith will never be extinguished, because the good news is too good, is too beautiful. But we must stop trying to save the institution.
When the pope came to Canada last July, he asked for forgiveness from the natives for the mistreatment suffered in boarding schools often entrusted to the Church. Is that enough for you?
JJ: What the federal government did to the Indians, wanting kill the indian in them to civilize them is a dark page in our history. I think the pope was very daring. This pope is not afraid of the truth and of using the right words. He said it was genocide.
We are all sinners, and our pope constantly reminds us of that. He’s really a brother, and I understand that there are some who don’t like him, it unsettles them. It’s not relaxing a Pope Francis!
How can we overcome our resistance to accepting the truth about the dark sides of the Church?
JJ: I really like what Jesus says: He who does the truth comes to light.The Church works to find out the truth. We must ask for forgiveness, without being afraid, without hiding. The Church is a body, of which I feel a part. It is not an organization, it is a living organism, which lives on the faith of its members. When one member is happy, everyone is happy. When someone deviates, or suffers, we all suffer. With the victims.
What can we change, in our lives, in our ways, to purify the Church?
JJ: I think the main thing is simplicity. We must be simple with others, and with the Lord, we must not wait for the censer. We must also welcome humiliations in our lives. Make believe that everything is good, beautiful, smooth, perfect, it smells bad. This is one of the traps of clericalism, along with the taste for power. Any aggression is an abuse of power! That’s the danger when you’re in a position of authority.
I see it when I speak to young people, when I preach retreats to them. It’s very stimulating, because they have a great innocence, without a second thought. The only thing that interests them is that we are true when we speak. But this is also where there can be a danger, because they are very malleable. When we begin to be the center of attraction of people in search of affection, therefore vulnerable, we must remember our imperfection, redouble our simplicity.
The rigidity and clericalism denounced by the pope can also exist among the laity. The need to give oneself a title, a role, a function… This is why I never wanted to be a deacon, even though I was often asked to do so. I am baptized, called to holiness, that is enough. It has happened that, during the retreats that I animate, bishops or priests ask me to read the Gospel during the mass. I said no: to each his role. I would like to make a comment, but within the framework of the liturgy, everyone has their role.
The simplicity of a theologian
It is on the occasion of the Theresian Week, which took place from September 28 to 1er October, feast of little Thérèse of Lisieux who is so dear to him, but also of the Mission Congress, which took place in Paris at the same time that Jacques Gauthier came to France. The opportunity for the Canadian poet and theologian to present his latest work at conferences, in which he shares his spiritual journey (1). Disarmingly simple, Jacques Gauthier retraces an emblematic life of the eras he passed through. Between his childhood, before the Second Vatican Council, in a deeply Catholic Quebec, and these last months marked by Pope Francis’ trip to Canada, asking for forgiveness from the natives, Jacques Gauthier went through a hippie period, a radical conversion that led in a deviant community, then under the influence of Thomas Philippe and Jean Vanier, before finding his way in the theopoesis of Patrice de la Tour du Pin, an academic career, and the writing of more than 80 works of spirituality widely diffused in France.
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Jacques Gauthier in a few dates
December 4, 1951birth of Jacques Gauthier in Grand-Mère, near Trois-Rivières, Canada
In 1971beginning of the hippie period of Jacques Gauthier
In 1972, encounter with the Charismatic Renewal and conversion. For six months he frequents a new community which will turn out to be deviant and will be dissolved.
In 1973, Touched by a testimony from his compatriot Jean Vanier, seen on television, he left for France and joined Trosly-Breuil (Oise). Jacques Gauthier meets Marthe Robin. He spent some time at the Trappist of Bellefontaine (Maine-et-Loire) then returned to Canada where he entered the novitiate of the Trappist of Oka.
After four years of monastic life, he devoted himself to a doctoral thesis at Laval University in Quebec, on the theopoesy of Patrice de La Tour du Pin. He also specializes in Thérèse of Lisieux.
In 1978he married Anne-Marie, with whom he had four children, and led a university career, but also as an author, poet, lecturer, and animator of spiritual retreats.